Originally Posted by Miteshu

I am a Ranger who uses the Barrage build. So I have two choices in one of the Ebon Vanguard Standard of skills.

If I use EVSoH, I would buff my own attacks.

However, if I use EVSoW, I would buff my 7 spellcaster heroes.

Which one should I use?

My Ranger uses a Barrage Build.

My Spellcasters are the Discord/Mes/spiritway.

Originally Posted by Skyy High

+damage ftw. Besides, it's more fun to see big yellow numbers from your own barrages.

Originally Posted by Arieon Ito

Doesn't EVSoH buff spell damage as well? Although I suppose it isn't as significant. Although I have to agree EVSoH is far more worthwhile than EVSoW, perhaps to make it seem more cost effective, you could switch out one spell caster for another Barrage or IA ranger.

Minions also benefit from the buff so if you've got them as meat shields, that makes EVSoH much more beneficial.

Originally Posted by Kunder

This shouldn't even be a contest. EBSoH is ridiculously good. Both of the others are crap. I had to check wiki just to figure out whether the EBSoW was the crappy +armor or the crappy + recharge, because they are both equally crap. EBSoW should never be on any bar unless you are running some kind of gimmicky caster damage build (watch my eyes roll back into my skull until they bleed).

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

you mean gimmicky builds like this?
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team...z_Caster_Spike
I think you have no idea how EBSoW works.

Imagine giving every caster 68% chance of recharging any spell 50% faster, which is roughly equivalent to arcane echoing any spell for free 68% of the time. It is much much better than echo and arcane echo, it affects the entire group and it costs them nothing. how is that not excellent? Works on RoJ, Savannah Heat, Energy Surge, EVAS, AP, whatever.

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

EBSOH is better IMO. Why? Because buffing barrage is better than getting 1 less recharge on Discord or 6 less recharge on Putrid Bile. Death Nova is on 0 recharge. Mesmer stuff is on 5-8 recharge each after Fast casting and the limiting factor is energy. If you're running Keystone mesmer, then EBSOW will be useless.

Spirits' recharge isn't going to be changed by EBSOW after all.

Originally Posted by Kunder

Yes, gimmick builds like that.

1. lol tank n spank.
2. lol not 7 heroes is it?
3. You massively overestimate its effectiveness because you forget it only stacks multiplicatively with 40/40 mods. Its actually only a 40% increase in HSR rate, equal to a 20% decrease in skill recharge time on average. Also, I would normally not mention this, but since you linked to a shitty build that requires consumables it becomes even weaker since it (again...) doesn't stack well. Now its a 10% recharge time decrease. I'm sure that 14s recharge instead of 16s recharge on RoJ is really damn awesome, right? Oh wait, its tank n spank so if you failed to kill the enemy on the first salvo you fail horribly at guilds wars anyways. The power of arcane echo and echo is that you can use the spell again IMMEDIATELY, not later when the battle is already over.

Of course, when you have 8 or even 12 players you can bring as many shitty PvE skills as you want in your build if they marginally improve your performance by a few %. That doesn't make them good PvE skills, it just means that when you have 96 skill options and 36 PvE skill options any party wide buff, no matter how weak, is usable because there is literally nothing else to bring.

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I have never seen so much fail in one post before. No point in trying to explain this to you since you've clearly already made up your mind.

For everyone else in this thread, EBSOW gives 60% chance of HSR for everyone on every single spell at no charge. Staffs give 20% chance of HSR for all spells, but this stacks multiplicatively, so it is 60% + (0.2 x 40) = 68%. I like to use staves because the 20% chance applies to all spells, even PvE skills that are spells, e.g. EVAS, Snow Storm, etc. It also applies to spells from a different attribute or from a secondary profession.

If you Arcane Echo something like Ray of Judgment you can cast two of them in 20 seconds at a cost of 15 additional energy for Arcane Echo. EBSoW gives a 68% chance of getting the same result for every spell on every character, and the only cost is 10 energy from the player... everyone else gets the benefit for free. If you still think that is worthless then I don't know what to say.

p.s. in addition to the energy cost for arcane echo, it has 50% downtime... it works for 20 seconds, then recharges for 20 seconds. EBSoW can be kept up 100%.

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I have never seen so much fail in one post before. No point in trying to explain this to you since you've clearly already made up your mind.

For everyone else in this thread, EBSOW gives 60% chance of HSR for everyone on every single spell at no charge. Staffs give 20% chance of HSR for all spells, but this stacks multiplicatively, so it is 60% + (0.2 x 40) = 68%. I like to use staves because the 20% chance applies to all spells, even PvE skills that are spells, e.g. EVAS, Snow Storm, etc. It also applies to spells from a different attribute or from a secondary profession.

If you Arcane Echo something like Ray of Judgment you can cast two of them in 20 seconds at a cost of 15 additional energy for Arcane Echo. EBSoW gives a 68% chance of getting the same result for every spell on every character, and the only cost is 10 energy from the player... everyone else gets the benefit for free. If you still think that is worthless then I don't know what to say.

p.s. in addition to the energy cost for arcane echo, it has 50% downtime... it works for 20 seconds, then recharges for 20 seconds. EBSoW can be kept up 100%.

Originally Posted by Kunder

I have never seen so much fail in one post before. OK, thats a bit of a lie since I've seen some ridiculously dumb things in my life, but you aren't failing for lack of trying.

Arcane Echo != EBSoW. EBSoW is a % for HSR. AE is a 100% ability to double use the spell. Being able to use a spell NOW is different from being able to use it LATER. By the time LATER comes the enemy is dead and all you have your thumb up your ass wasting time and energy on a PvE skill that provided pretty much no benefit. As I said, EBSoW is merely a -20% recharge on average. That is ridiculously crappy for a PvE skill slot unless you have 24-36 PvE slots available, in which case it gets in by virtue of not being so crappy that you can't fill empty space with it. You seem to be getting lost in the "HSR" part of it without considering the "%" part of it and how it stacks, and finally the total net average benefit from bringing the skill. Do you perchance play the lottery?

The fact that you are using sub-par equipment to make EBSoW appear better is laughable. If you are casting spells and recharge is a factor then you use 40/40 or you are bad at guild wars (exception for +20% enchants, of course). The fact that you mention EBSoW also being able to affect EVAS and Snow Storm is also laughable, because those are shitty skills. Great, one shitty PvE skill can make another shitty PvE skill slightly less shitty. That's a good idea.

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

If you Arcane Echo something like Ray of Judgment you can cast two of them in 20 seconds at a cost of 15 additional energy for Arcane Echo. EBSoW gives a 68% chance of getting the same result for every spell on every character, and the only cost is 10 energy from the player... everyone else gets the benefit for free. If you still think that is worthless then I don't know what to say.

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

You still do not understand. Read this more carefully.
And I doubt that anyone else would say that EVAS (Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support) is a terrible skill, it is used everywhere.

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

so here's the math:
RoJ: 1 cast every 20 seconds, because of 20 second recharge
20% chance of HSR with staff
36% chance of HSR with 40/40 set
average recharge: .2(10)+.8(20) = 18.0s with staff
average recharge: .36(10)+.64(20) = 16.4s with 40/40

with EBSoW:
60% chance of HSR for every spell
68% chance of HSR with staff
73% chance of HSR with 40/40 set
average recharge: .68(10) + .32(20) = 6.8 + 6.4 = 13.2 with staff
average recharge: .73(10) + .27(20) = 7.3 + 5.4 = 12.7 with 40/40

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

As you can see, the difference between staves and 40/40 sets is minimal when the chance of HSR is this high, so all of your arrogance/rudeness/whatever about staffs being bad is not only uncalled for, it's just wrong.

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

With Arcane Echo you can get 4 casts of RoJ guaranteed with your staff, assuming a 20% enchanting mod, with 36% chance of getting 5, and 12% chance of getting 6. This won't work at all with a 40/40 set since you can't have an enchanting mod on that, so you would lose 2 casts of RoJ when Arcane Echo ends.

With EBSoW alone you are getting an average of 5 casts in the same time with either staff or 40/40, as opposed to having a 36% chance of getting 5 casts. And EBSoW affects everyone else, and it works with any secondary, and it lets you use 40/40 if you want, *AND* it even costs less to use. *AND*, you can use EBSoW and Arcane Echo together to get even more benefit, as shown here. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...ay_of_Judgment

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Next time get your facts straight instead of just getting angry.